Art School experiences (Skilled vs unskilled art)

Saw this article about "de-skilling" in art schools on our forum member Geir's facebook feed and then read the James Gurney interview/article in the traditional section of IFX magazine issue 111 and was reminded of it.

It's not the first time I've seen (especially fantasy) artists claim their work was ridiculed or denounced by their art school teachers. But while I think we're kind of used to Fantasy and sci fi art being viewed as "lesser", it seems that good quality art is also sometimes denounced in favour of more "experimental" art (we have to "paint our feelings" and apparently it can't be done in a realistic way?)

Just curious what you all feel about this. Any personal experiences?

I haven't attened art school myself but I do remember drawing class in 8th or 9th grade. I was plugging away trying to do something good and next to me were two girls who were just fooling around. When the teacher came by they invented some "deep" explanation on the spot and then laughed behind his back when he moved on. He bought it wholesale and they were really just disrespectful to him and the class.

I did take a course in art and architectural history at uni though, and I remember everyone had to read an article by a female art professor and write a review. I wrote a summary of the article explaining the professor's opinion and conclusions but added at the end that I didn't agree with it. I got 3 out of 10 points and the comment that the professor would know what she was doing... We also had classes where a teacher read aloud from a book written half a century earlier (my mom had the same book when she studied art history before I was born). It seemed to me that they were very unwilling to criticise "old truths" and at the same time my personal opinion is that "unintelligible" art has been highly appreciated ever since avant garde was first invented... (Like art critics and teachers think if they don't understand it, it has to be great...)

I have no experience of art courses apart from what i've seen other people experience.
My sister did an art course and it was really abstract things they liked, they did a lot of cutting and sticking .
My daughters friend also took an art course and he told me they had to roll up small pieces of paper and stick them on paper to make a picture. He said there was very little drawing at all.
So no fantasy or sci if was taught, they favoured 'alternative' art it seems.

I did attend an Art College and the emphasis was on the fundamentals. In fact the first year was your Foundation year..Anatomy (from life) Nature Drawing ( still life ) 2 dimensional (design and composition ) 3 dimensional (composition, spatial relationships) Color Concepts (understanding the values, color theories ) Perspective ( single point, two point, three point, and creating believable shadows ) and Painting ( specifically oil painting ). I think I may have missed one but it's been awhile. This may be unique to this particular school and I know that the local university pushed the more avant-garde style of artwork but then the founder of the college believed in students knowing the rules before they could break them. "I remember the last classes..Art History and English."
Students then went on to follow a more focused path Commercial as in illustration, advertising, product or fashion design or Fine Art as in ceramics, glass, print making, sculpture, or oils.

I got a lot out of it and many of the assignments lent themselves to either a realistic or fantasy flair and several of the students that were in my classes did push it in that direction. I still remember the Mother Goose assignment in which a fellow student chose to do 'Peter, peter, pumpkin eater...' as a bondage piece...use your imaginations.
But I find now I'm not surrounded by like minded folks who do or appreciate Science Fiction/Fantasy art ..... Except here of course.
I've often thought I should glue my cut offs and scrap wood together come up with some esoteric title for it with some phony philosophy about it and submit it to a show. I'm kind of afraid to try because if it won something it would be ....I don't know....proof that the art I like to create is not worth putting the time and effort I put in to it.
Maybe I just live in the wrong place.
Back to schools, I think you have to check into them carefully making sure that they will cover the basics and not concentrate on a style of work. Just my two cents worth.

I think you're right Hobby, that it varies from school to school. My father's been doing some teaching as well and he's always placed a lot of emphasis on understanding human anatomy for instance, and "learning to see". (Just wish he'd ever taken the time to teach me! But I guess I wasn't paying for it...)

I was in college for a long time, about 6 years in all, from the age of 16-21.

I found the greatest advantage that art college afforded, was the environment in which to draw and paint. But, not the actual teaching itself.

I have learned more, practically speaking, from this forum than I ever did at college. That's not to say that it was a waste of time at college, it did teach me some of the basics, but it was mostly the environment and equipment that was its greatest advantage.

Something that I came across very often was the idea that sci-fi and fantasy art was to be studiously avoided. One of my tutors was infamous for using the term "spacemen" to refer to anything like that. Stop drawing spacemen!! Stop drawing spacemen!!

But here's the thing; I thought he was completely right!!

It wasn't that the genres were bad in themselves, but that it was often so distracting to the fundamentals of art. We were there to learn how to draw and paint, not how to draw and paint sci-fi and fantasy. As kids, and even as adults, we are obviously interested in these subjects. But when I was in college I needed to learn neutrally, not given to just one genre or another.

The fact that there is so much sci-fi and fantasy art out there used in films, books, comics, animations, toys and loads of other stuff, shows that they are clearly not underrated genres. They may not end up in large buildings or in stately homes. But that is not the measure of great art is it!?

I work in a college that his stiflingly specific in what it wants from its students. The standard of work is high, but the restrictive nature of its briefs and the strict end results are so deprived of individualism and creativity. In other words, the work will look great to a university, but does little for the imagination of the student.

You can view that a couple of ways. Either it is harmful to a creative student, or it is exactly what a training artist needs. A strict grasp of the fundamentals.

I am inclined to view it as the latter.

I think I'd prefer a happy medium
But in light of the linked article there seems to be a lot of students out there who feel that they want the fundamentals but the schools (some of them) aren't teaching it.

I guess we're all different - some people learn fine (and work studiously!) on their own and for others it's easier to have a strict schedule set up by a teacher. Either way, I think it's important to learn the fundamentals of painting before starting to break the rules - like Hobby said. It's a shame if there are schools where the fundamentals are ignored and you have to jump straight into painting like a Picasso... (I never liked Picasso much by the way but when I learned - in art history class - that he actually could draw reasonably well before he started with cubism and such, I guess I felt slightly more inclined to accept his work... Which I guess is sort of opposite to the de-skilling ideas, but what do I know )

De-skilling is an interesting idea.

I once went to a university that told us that if we enrolled on the course, that we would have to be untaught all that we had previously learned and taught form the ground up again.

The standard of work there, in traditional mediums, was the strongest I have ever, to date, seen. So I trusted what they were saying.

It is interesting to see that they had observed the need to undo harmful drawing methods that, whilst fun and common amongst amateur sci-fi and fantasy artists, were detrimental to an artists fundamental understanding.

Hobby has already said it, we need the fundamentals first. Then we can worry about the other stuff.

Unfortunately, I never had an opportunity to study art when I was growing up and sadly have never taken a single class. But I wish I had though. ... I actually had two different art schools that bugged my mom for a few years after two of my teachers sent in some of my artwork to them. They would send literature to the house and even came by a couple times and sat down with us, but the money was never there. My father passed away when I was just 7, and that left my mom alone to raise 3 of us, and she just didn't make that kind of money. And then when I got older, to be honest, there wasn't any places that would allow me to do the type of work that I really wanted to do, which was fantasy related. I even had a friend who's dad was a commercial artist, and could have probably got me a job with his firm, but not knowing any better and not wanting to draw buildings, and parking lots, ect. I declined to even look into it. ... I guess I was stupid looking back now, but at the time, I just figured I wanted to draw what I liked and not have to do stuff that didn't interest me.

Not to mention the limit of art related fields in general back then.

I think Dave has hit upon it just right!

We can be so narrow sighted that we think only one type of art is for us, when we could be training the foundations to later build on.

I did the same Dave. I looked back and saw the wisdom of my tutors only after I had squandered my chances to get the basics down. Cursed teenage years!!

The one other thing that an art school has going for it is the full immersion aspect of it. You live, eat and breath art. You see how other like minded people tackle an assignment. You get instructive critiques and you can put what you learned on the very next assignment...the next day...along with the 6 other assignments due .
Oh yes and to hell with a social life....all nighters were the norm. Many students never made it past the first month let alone the first week. A weeding out of those that didn't have the dedication needed. If I had one regret it would be that I missed out on the total immersion because I didn't stay on campus and the input I could have received while in the process of working on a project I think would have benefitted me a lot.

This forum comes close but we all have other things that grab our time...BTW How's the remodeling coming Dave? ; )